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 Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9

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PostSubject: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 26th 2008, 8:34 am

Into the Land of Immortals
Chapter Nine

Part 1

It took the presence of Nuverd to keep Venicht in his seat. Annalia tried to ease the tedium of watching a council session by fixing one of the lad's favorite snacks, but he had wolfed it down as if hoping with it finished he might be allowed to play. Neither adult gave any indication of considering such a thought, although the twisting of Venicht made it obvious that he considered anything else in the room to have more interest than what he was seeing on the television.

The meeting did have some meaning to Annalia. She would have preferred watching in the usual manner of only keeping the television on while she went about her business. The council never did anything in a hurry, and she agreed with Venicht that there were better ways to pass the time. He would however completely avoid the events being broadcast, while Annalia would continue to pay attention waiting for some final decision on what would be allowed to be voted upon. As if to give some reward for her and Nuverd forcing the lad to watch, he suddenly spoke an admittance that what he was seeing had some relevance to him.

"They don't like my father."

Annalia tried to laugh as she replied, "They definitely do not like that your mother married your father."

"Mother and father said that those of the council were foolish."

"I don't believe that I have said anything different."

Venicht turned to Nuverd to wait for his reply. He simply glared back, and when the lad did not immediately turn back to the screen the man popped his staff on the floor. Venicht spun around, but only to speak to the adult that would talk back.

"Mrs. Emiash said that I needed to pay attention to learn how the government operates. She also said that I would find what they did of interest. I am not interested in hearing people speak bad about my father."

Nuverd now spoke, "You need to learn, Prince Venicht, that not everyone will appreciate your actions, however grand and productive. Others that accomplish less will think themselves more worthy, and sometimes be thought of by others as more worthy. It is however not your place to defend yourself. Note that your father and your mother are not present. All that this council will decide is their own opinion. You must always make your own decisions and hold to them."

Annalia liked what the man said, and hoped that her own words would provide reinforcement. "Your mother has a place of authority above this council. Your father has faced this council before. It is possible you will have to stand before this council in the future. You need to learn how they operate, so that they will not prevent your own actions just as they have not prevented your mother or father from doing what they felt best."

She waited as Venicht's features displayed his attempt to form a reply, but all eyes moved to the screen as the name of the lad's father was again stated. "The main problem I have been given concerning Terish deals with his relationship with our empress. Giving him honor will be close to giving him authority over our world. That cannot be allowed."

Councilman Aven presently had control of the discussion, and spoke to keep the topic moving according to his desires. "Thank you, Lieutenant Councilman Neibors. It sounds like the statements that Councilman Giluchex would be advising should he have been present. Lieutenant Councilman Audrein, what instructions have Councilman Chorrik left you?"

The man the camera focused upon lifted his eyes from a crossword puzzle book, then reached forward to pull the microphone closer to his face before he asked, "About Terish?"

Chuckles sounded as the one regulating the debate clarified, "Yes, Lieutenant Councilman Audrein, about Terish."

"I was told not to be concerned about what those in this room did concerning him. Terish's children, grand-children, and eventual bloodline would vote him into power sooner or later."

A din began to fill the council chamber, but the one who had his crossword puzzle interrupted made his voice heard to those listening through the media if not in the council chamber itself. "Listen, we never stopped the future. We made it possible to go into the future. Empress Straekin did not leave us because she tired of the scenery from her windows. She did not even leave because of growing tired with dealing with us here in the council. She left because she saw a future with Terish. We need to look towards our future, and not make rulings on what is happening now or in the past."

Councilman Aven banged his fist upon a thick book held close to a microphone until he had regained some control over those present in the chamber, and to hopefully assure that dignity be returned he said, "Lieutenant Councilman Audrein, assuring a future for Davelda is what the council is about."

"Well, let me say this. I often consider buying a horse and traveling to other worlds. I dream of traveling to some far strange and distant place where I meet a most wonderful lady. She will talk with me on subjects that I enjoy. She will travel with me to places that I like to visit. She will lay with me when I am tired. That is a most magnificent dream, don't you agree?"

"I believe that most in the council, being mostly males, will have had such fantasies."

"Yes, well, the reality, I am afraid, is that I might find that her people treat me with as much disrespect as we have treated Terish."

The din again tried to make itself heard, although the voice of another councilman managed to gain the notice to speak for the group. "Are you saying, Lieutenant Councilman Audrein, that you are going to vote to have a hope of achieving your fantasy?"

"Are you going to vote so I cannot?" Before another could speak, he added, "Let me remind the council that Empress Straekin did not leave alone. Just about her entire staff left with her. Attendant Annalia has had trouble restaffing the apartment of the empress, because there are few she can recall to certain duties. I want all in this chamber to consider that not just Empress Straekin have found their fantasies being fulfilled elsewhere."

Annalia turned from the television to say, "All right, Nuverd, Venicht has seen enough. They will now debate this for the next few hours, if not days. The prince has seen enough to talk with Mrs. Emiash at the next lesson."

"And here I was finally getting interested in what was being said."

"I have seen the council in session for centuries, Nuverd. When they finally say something intelligent, they usually drown it in idiocy."

"I would still desire to hear more. Could you take Venicht to the playground?" The lad cheered, but the man made it known that his freedom would not last. "His next lesson is in slightly more than an hour. He thus cannot stay too long."

"I need some potatoes peeled for supper."

"Thank you, Annalia."

She did not respond, but focused on Venicht. The lady had been around the lad enough to know that she first had to consider his attire and what she would be doing while he played. By the time she thought herself ready to take Venicht, he felt that there was little time left for him to have fun. Annalia did not argue with the statement, although marveled how he followed with a question that did not relate to possible future playing opportunities.

"Annalia, do you believe the council will vote in favor of my father?"

"Venicht, it has been over six hundred years, and they have yet to vote in favor of your mother. Every proposal she managed to get passed was done with a large amount of squabbling." Not hearing the lad make a statement in return had the lady make a more substantial response. "They will simply table the motion until Giluchex returns. He has a place in the council that few remember, although the tradition his place has forced on the council will be maintained." Annalia dropped her head to whisper to the lad as they walked, "Giluchex is the enemy. He was a general on the wrong side of the war."

"And they let him live?"

"Our fight was for immortality, Venicht. It is one of our horrors that we killed people who should have been given the blessing of eternal life. Those that listened to your mother, even those of the enemy, were accepted as citizens of what we then called the new Davelda. That included Giluchex."

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PostSubject: Re: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 26th 2008, 12:11 pm

Do you want a critique of this?
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PostSubject: Reply   December 26th 2008, 2:34 pm

Urs wrote:
Do you want a critique of this?
What? An actual response? COOL!

Sure, go ahead. The story is far enough along that I consider most necessary history to have been given. If there is something you believe is lacking, or simply some aspect that bothers you, go ahead and let me know. The story is about to settle into its path towards its ultimate destiny, so this is actually a good time to give me some feedback. I thus look forward to what you have to say.

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Fantasy puts more requirements on the writer than any other fiction, because the world must be made as real before anything else can be real.
Adult Christian fiction quite different than all the usual lame stuff in that market.  "Dilemma of Dreams" now in hard back.
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PostSubject: Re: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 26th 2008, 3:52 pm

TerishD wrote:
Urs wrote:
Do you want a critique of this?
What? An actual response? COOL!

Umm ok.

Quote :
If there is something you believe is lacking, or simply some aspect that bothers you, go ahead and let me know.

Well I have already discussed the wooden nature of your dialogue, which makes for two major problems.

The first is that everyone begins to sound the same, the second being they are dimensionless.

Proper speech and all that jazz aside, people have different temperaments, talents and styles of talking and unless that it brought to the forefront as a defining trait of your personalities of your people, they are about as entertaining and lively as a cardboard cut out.

You need to have people with poor speech modes, people with bad word choices, and other issues and problems, people that let their temper get the better of them as well as people that just use really big long words to use really big long words. Quirks and issues in how people talk ARE what brings them to life in a story.

It kills most of what you have here because you are dependent upon dialogue in your story, so it being wooden, makes your entire story bland.

You need to do something about this far more then say someone that does a great deal of action and scene setting with minimal dialogue.

In the end of things, you need to fix that.

Lets look at this:

"They don't like my father." (Not mentiong that this needs a "?" not a ".") this is lifeless. I don't feel the child talking at all. What emotion am I supposed to pull from this? Concern? Confusion? Anger? Happiness? Embitterment? as it stands this strikes me as if it coming from the mouth of a person like Wednesday Adams (With less goth dynamic to them)

Annalia tried to laugh as she replied, "They definitely do not like that your mother married your father." This is a try at emotion, but still nothing there, I don't feel what I would wager should be something uncomfortable

"Mother and father said that those of the council were foolish." Again, no emotion here, just words being spoken, but no feeling behind them. This character is flat and gray at this moment. I do not sympathize with or for this child in their situation, because the child does not have any sympathetic qualities from this dialogue.

"I don't believe that I have said anything different."


Ok, try this again.

"They don't like my father" (name) said as his eyes fixed hard on to the councle members. A look of hard defiance crossed the features of the young prince and future king.

or.

"They do not like my father?" (name) said as his face took on a stricken look for one so young, seeing things he ought not to be exposed to just yet in his short life


Annalia tried to break the bleakness of the young princes mood by giving the boy a slight smile and forcing out a chuckle "Well, it is not so much that they do not like your father, it is more that they don't like who he married"

You need to fix your dialogue, your story depends on it too much for you to put out flat lifeless "speak" tags.

This kills your story as it bars any form of character development.

Here is the way it works, a reader can't care what happens to this boy, his father, his mother, the council, or anyone else for that matter if they all seem flat, if they are not "Alive" no one can care if they "Die"

That is the first problem with your story, I have brought this up before and it is one of those things that just seems to keep getting worse and worse as I read on. The entire cast is flat and lifeless

You also have issues with action dynamics and thought association.

The good part is, your plot is solid and sound with very well placed twists.
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PostSubject: Reply   December 26th 2008, 4:35 pm

Thank you. I disagree, but I concede your opinion. I see your style of writing in a number of books, and I accept that there is a group that expects that type of presentation. I don't read those books, or I gripe about the writing when I do, but I accept that you do, you like those books, and you desire for me to follow those guidelines.

--- Begin retort ---
Honestly, I tried doing odd speaking with a story, and people complained there as well. What I found was that they expected the USUAL speech oddities. Because my simple-minded person did not speak in the manner that they were used to hearing a simple-minded person speak, they said - just like you are saying - that my speech was wooden. They wanted my monster to speak with the accepted gruffy voice, not with a tongue sticking hacking type of voice. I am NOT going to tell usual stories with the usual cast of characters. My fantasy comes from a different place.

It was strange the other night. Somebody was looking up something in one of my reference books and having trouble. I looked at him, directed him to the right page, then said, "Now you know my problem with other people's books, as I often have trouble finding things using their system of organization." The same here with my complaints about reading the writings of others - they sound like cartoons to me. When you thus read my stories, please understand, this is what I want in the stories of others.

--- End retort ---

I will agree that this story is more dialogue driven than most. I just finished a tale of dwarves and magic that had a lot of action, so wanted a change of pace. After this I am thinking about presenting a more youthful story. I might decide to play more with 'voices' there.

Thank you again for your time, concern, and words of wisdom.

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PostSubject: Re: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 26th 2008, 6:00 pm

TerishD wrote:
Thank you. I disagree, but I concede your opinion. I see your style of writing in a number of books, and I accept that there is a group that expects that type of presentation. I don't read those books, or I gripe about the writing when I do, but I accept that you do, you like those books, and you desire for me to follow those guidelines.

You can write in any matter you see fit. But, after reviewing this, it is apparent that your players lack dimension, animation and emotion.

You also have issues with dynamic of situation (explaining what is happening), thought flow process (many parts feel disjointed and half finished).

Take that how you will.


Quote :
I am NOT going to tell usual stories with the usual cast of characters. My fantasy comes from a different place.


Where your "fantasy" comes from is not in question, however if it not conveyed to me in a manner by which I can be adsorbed into this world(s) you have made (or carried along by it) it becomes a lifeless lump of words to me, as bland and tasteless as if I ate the pages as opposed to read them.

But that is just my feelings on it, based on the kind of stories I enjoy reading.

Quote :
When you thus read my stories, please understand, this is what I want in the stories of others.

Well... That was all I needed to hear, a writer will write as they would enjoy reading.

If what you have written is what you would enjoy reading, then, write in a manner that inspires you.

It matters not what I say on the issue.
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PostSubject: Reply   December 26th 2008, 9:39 pm

Don't get huffy about it, Urs. I am not going around forcing others to obey my style of writing. In fact, I tell others the same thing that you are telling me. I ADMIT that what you are saying is correct.

If you caught me with a grammar error, or a plot hole, I would be COMPLETELY apologetic. If you had found a problem with a character, I would be working to correct it. Simply saying that my speech patterns show that my people "lack dimension, animation and emotion" tells me that you are not paying attention to who these people are and the story that they are telling.

Nuverd IS as dull as you claim. He is a military general that had to raise two boys on his own even as he advanced his own ranks. He has had no life. He is regimental, strict, and follows the rules that he imposes on others. He speaks plainly with adages, and often thinks before he speaks.

Annalia IS charming, but still as dull as you claim. She has been in a support role with the ruler of a WORLD. She has had a little spice to her life (it will come out later), but mostly her life has been set by her occupation. If she was not good and liked her job, she would not be where she is.

I HAVE an 8-year-old boy in my house. Do NOT tell me that 8-year-olds do not speak as Venicht speaks. Worse, Venicht was raised in a much more intensive environment than my boy. Venicht speaks very properly, because he has not yet learned enough to know better.

Now, listen to me - You are going to hear from me honest. I am not stupid, and I don't think of my readers as stupid. I don't need or want authors BANGING me over the head with speech impediments simply to covey a STEREOTYPE. I also do not want or need a diverse variety of people just because I am too DUMB to recognize people of the same cloth. I am sorry, but the style of writing that you promote - and CONTEMPORARY editors demand (there was a time when they wrote more like I write, and I go to libraries to read those BETTER works) - is simplistic, low-brow, and made to be read by 7th graders (if that high). I am sorry, but I REFUSE to be associated with the same industry that promotes "Eragon" (I stomached "Elder," but could not chew or swallow "Brisinger").

If you cannot tell the difference between these three people, then you need to study people a little. If you do not enjoy 'listening in' to these three people - Okay, I accept that. I would rather 'listen in' to the behind-the-scenes situations of people like Nuverd, Annalia, and Venicht than some gutter thief, boots of clay fighter, and drunk magician.

Now, all of this aside, does this mean that I am perfect and 'have it right?' No. Does this mean that I toss out your words? No, but I even admitted that you were right. So what does this mean? It means that you had the kindness, the respect, the HONOR to reply. I fully accept that.

Note:

1) I will keep writing. I will be paying attention to the speaking styles. Maybe I can tweak for your benefit.

2) I will keep attempting to please ME. If you want those other type of stories, there are plenty in the bookstore. My walls cringe back when I return from the bookstore, because they know objects will be tossed in their direction.

3) I will attempt other types of writing. I do not constantly tell the same type of story. I do however write heroic fantasy with truly noble people, because no one else is writing it. If you want scum-bags saving the world, again you can go to the bookstore.

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PostSubject: Re: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 27th 2008, 12:21 am

TerishD wrote:
Don't get huffy about it, Urs. I am not going around forcing others to obey my style of writing. In fact, I tell others the same thing that you are telling me. I ADMIT that what you are saying is correct.

If you caught me with a grammar error, or a plot hole, I would be COMPLETELY apologetic. If you had found a problem with a character, I would be working to correct it. Simply saying that my speech patterns show that my people "lack dimension, animation and emotion" tells me that you are not paying attention to who these people are and the story that they are telling.

Now, listen to me - You are going to hear from me honest. I am not stupid, and I don't think of my readers as stupid. I don't need or want authors BANGING me over the head with speech impediments simply to covey a STEREOTYPE.

Speech Impediments?

Speech Patterns?

Ok, go back, read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote, not what someone else has written to you in the past, nor what you might imagine you think I am saying.

Read what I wrote.

And then answer me this. Would a 17 year old servant girl to the queen of a world talk the same way an 8 year old boy who is the Future King of this world?

If not, what would the differential factors? How could I tell who is talking by their written words alone?

If Yes, why?

Next question: Would the Queen talk the same way to her servant girl as she would her Husband?

Would a man who was born a King, Raised a King, and married a queen talk the same way a man who was born middle class, gained the rank of General in the army and then won the heart of a Queen talk?

What would be the differences? what would divide them?

That is what I am asking you to do, and take into consideration. You have TOO much dialogue NOT to consider these things.

You are sadly mistaken if you thought I expected you to give me some putrid crap like: Dat der some gud eatin'

Quote :
I am sorry, but the style of writing that you promote - and CONTEMPORARY editors demand (there was a time when they wrote more like I write, and I go to libraries to read those BETTER works) - is simplistic, low-brow, and made to be read by 7th graders (if that high). I am sorry, but I REFUSE to be associated with the same industry that promotes "Eragon" (I stomached "Elder," but could not chew or swallow "Brisinger").

Ok, lets look at that then.

So with that in mind I tell you that my suggestions date back, long into the vast and dynamic history of the written word. (Note: I have not read "Eragon" nor do I have any motive to do so, so have no reference to that particular work, the movie sucked however)

Let me give you an example:

Pulling this out of no place, but a work we all might enjoy. Moby Dick.

We had lain thus in bed, chatting and napping at short intervals, and Queequeg now and then affectionately throwing his brown tattooed legs over mine, and then drawing them back; so entirely sociable and free and easy were we; when, at last, by reason of our confabulations, what little nappishness remained in us altogether departed, and we felt like getting up again, though day-break was yet some way down the future.
Moby Dick Chapter 11, Page 52.

See that dynamic in what I made bold. The rest of the work is good too, but I want you to look at this, pay attention to the flow and poise, this entire work is written in first person, so the whole thing is spoken narration, but it conveys feelings, emotions "so entirely sociable and free and easy we were" look at that, how Free, social and easy were were. You get a feeling of shamelessness to this moment an almost giddy naughtiness to the feel of the words and it quite obvious that is the intent here. We see men being shameless men and feeling good about it. We feel that they feel good about it.

It sucks us in. Dynamic, Emotional, and alive. They come to life in this short little bit, just this chapter and verse would keep you glued to this work to see what will come next! We feel for this person, they are alive to us, a man with emotion, feeling, LIFE! which now we subsequently care if he Dies or not. We could read from this page forward and still be sucked in, with nothing but a desire to read the beginning purely for the joy of it!

Ok, Moby Dick might be a bit overdone, so Lets try something else, maybe a bit more on the fantasy side of fiction, as opposed to normal whales, lets go to vampires.

"Dr. Seward, may I ask a favor? I want to see your patient, Mr. Renfield. Do let me see him. What you have said of him in your diary interests me so much!"

She looked so appealing and so pretty that I could not refuse her, and there was no possible reason why I should, so I took her with me. When I went into the room, I told the man that a lady would like to see him, to which he simply answered, "Why?"

Dracula, Bram Stoker, Start of Chapter 18.

Look at that, a follow up tag to the spoken words, we get feelings and emotion, situation and scene setting. In this little bit we can earnestly feel what is going on.

"To which he simply answered 'why'"

Now look at that line. We get a feeling from this, a slight and simple as it might be, we get emotion here.

But Dracula is a bit more your style so you might even enjoy this, continuing on in chapter 18 of Dracula, we see some Dialogue.


Mrs. Harker smiled sweetly as she replied, "Oh no! I have a husband of my own, to whom I was married before I ever saw Dr. Seward, or he me. I am Mrs. Harker."

"Then what are you doing here?"

"My husband and I are staying on a visit with Dr. Seward."

"Then don't stay."

"But why not?"

I thought that this style of conversation might not be pleasant to Mrs. Harker, any more than it was to me, so I joined in, "How did you know I wanted to marry anyone?"

His reply was simply contemptuous, given in a pause in which he turned his eyes from Mrs. Harker to me, instantly turning them back again, "What an asinine question!"


Look at this, see how the mental expression is brought out, we feel the emotion as it is flowing "I thought that this style if conversation might not be pleasent to Mrs. Harker" we get the feeling that this is NOT a pleasing conversation, we get a feeling for things.

Given that Bram Stoker wrote this a style that was far more tricky then 3rd person omniscient (Which you are using) and highly more limited because it is written in first person past tense letter style. Hence the title of chapter 18 being "DR. SEWARD'S DIARY"

So we can forgive his lack of emotional dynamic on speech tags only because the nature of the style would make it out of place. But he does put in emotion at every chance he can get to counter that shortcoming.

Both those pages and works were just randomly selected to give you an idea of how you convey emotion with words.

Lets look at Frankenstein, Chapter 8.

Justine was called on for her defence. As the trial had proceeded, her countenance had altered. Surprise, horror, and misery were strongly expressed. Sometimes she struggled with her tears; but, when she was desired to plead, she collected her powers, and spoke, in an audible, although variable voice.

"God knows," she said, "how entirely I am innocent. But I do not pretend that my protestations should acquit me: I rest my innocence on a plain and simple explanation of the facts which have been adduced against me; and I hope the character I have always borne will incline my judges to a favourable interpretation, where any circumstance appears doubtful or suspicious."

She then related that, by the permission of Elizabeth, she had passed the evening of the night on which the murder had been committed at the house of an aunt at Chene, a village situated at about a league from Geneva.... (sic)


Now, no Speech Tag (or impediment for that matter) was used, but given the build up and post supplicant of information, none was needed.

Now, I suppose I could go with the works of Sherlock Holmes, Huckleberry Finn, The Three Musketeers, Scarlet Letter, Etc and so forth, to continue my point, but I hope I have made my point already.

Did you notice, no one was speaking "odd" or with "Impediments", they were speaking with Emotion and Life, and that is my entire point, that is what I am trying to get you to see.

All works, from the first to the last, need to have the people come to LIFE, to be Dynamic, Living, Breathing beings that the reader can invest an ounce of emotion into, if they can not, then you have a listless story,just words on a page that don't say anything.

It is like reading a manual that does not tell teach you anything.

I have no idea if I made my point or not.

As for the rest of your response:

First: You should write for you, above all else. Write the stories you want to read. Those will be the best stories told.

I am not talking about your plot, your story concept, or even the nature of your people. I said that was sound. Has great potential. Why you think otherwise is beyond me (perhaps someone else made that point)

Note: I do not ever plan on writing a review this long again.
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PostSubject: Reply   December 27th 2008, 8:53 am

We are missing each other Urs. You are using the same references that I would use to support my style of writing. By the way, good choices. I like a good debate, but there has to be a common ground. You are seeing things that I don't while I am seeing things that you don't.

This section has two adults watching television with a child. The point-of-view is with one of the adults. There is no joy in the scene, and such is stated. There is annoyance, and such is stated as well. I have such experiences in family reunions where we adults will speak on a topic including children, although keeping the tone and level of discussion to our pleasing (teaching the children how to properly discuss things and behave). Such is also done at school in our book club meetings. From my experience, I nailed the tone of the story very well.

Since the purpose of the scene is not on the antics of the child, I did not go into detail specifying such. The purpose of the scene is in developing the relationship of the government. The council has been almost comedy relief in the earlier stories, but now I am presenting them as a viable part of the story. I thus now present scenes of the council in session, while before they were just guys attempting to prevent their empress (a lady) from leaving them. My focus was to present the actions of the council as being incorrect even to the young, although showing that there were now voices in the council speaking to correct old errors. Since the main action is with Giluchex (the leader of the resistance group) finally traveling with his empress and Terish, I am showing the readers that changes are occuring at 'home' (Davelda). This hopefully builds tension in the reader to wonder if Giluchex will change his attitudes as well, or if he will become a staunch defender of the old way (basically becoming a defiant villian). Again, I believe that I did a good job of delivering the message that I wanted to deliver.

I accept that your opinion differs. I again thank you for taking the time.

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PostSubject: Re: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 27th 2008, 11:33 am

I grasped your synopsis. I even grasped what you are trying to do here and the little bit at the end was a nice touch, a hook as it is called.

You have the story line down, the ideas and plot twists. As I said, it is a story that has limitless potential, you have a cast, setting, players, and I would wager a vast deep rich history to this entire story.

None of that is what I am talking about, nor do I find any problems with that aspect of your work, The Key aspect of what I trying to present to you is LIFE, feelings, emotion, richness and depth of person, and it seems you are correct, we seem to be missing each other on this.

TerishD wrote:
We are missing each other Urs. You are using the same references that I would use to support my style of writing. By the way, good choices. I like a good debate, but there has to be a common ground. You are seeing things that I don't while I am seeing things that you don't.

This might be because we are trying to say different things.

Quote :
This section has two adults watching television with a child. ...(sic)... There is no joy in the scene, and such is stated. There is annoyance, and such is stated as well.

Ok. That is exactly my point.

You stated it, but I did not feel it.

We had lain thus in bed, chatting and napping at short intervals, and Queequeg now and then affectionately throwing his brown tattooed legs over mine, and then drawing them back; so entirely sociable and free and easy were we;

See how emotion is part of the life of this situation. We see and feel what is going on here.

You gave me an idea if what the people are supposed to be like, you have told me that Nuverd is a dull type person, your next step is make me feel Nuverd is a dull person.

The door opened; two guards received Bonacieux in their arms from the officer who supported him. They carried him through an alley, up a flight of stairs, and deposited him in an antechamber.

All these movements had been effected mechanically, as far as he was concerned. He had walked as one walks in a dream; he had a glimpse of objects as through a fog. His ears had perceived sounds without comprehending them; he might have been executed at that moment without his making a single gesture in his own defense or uttering a cry to implore mercy.

He remained on the bench, with his back leaning against the wall and his hands hanging down, exactly on the spot where the guards placed him.

The Three Musketeers, Chapter 14.

Look at this, and tell me, do you feel for this man?

He is not doing anything "Dynamic" he is being carried to his death and not fighting it, he has given up and we can feel that he has given up. I can feel his hopelessness, his sense of being lost and defeated in way.

It is hard to explain.

So lets compare.


The meeting did have some meaning to Annalia. She would have preferred watching in the usual manner of only keeping the television on while she went about her business. The council never did anything in a hurry, and she agreed with Venicht that there were better ways to pass the time. He would however completely avoid the events being broadcast, while Annalia would continue to pay attention waiting for some final decision on what would be allowed to be voted upon. As if to give some reward for her and Nuverd forcing the lad to watch, he suddenly spoke an admittance that what he was seeing had some relevance to him.


Now, do you feel for Annalia, Nuverd, and Venicht the same way you felt for Bonacieux?

Compare these, look at them, and try to see what I am hoping to show you.

if I did not want to see you get better, I would have given up a long time ago in trying to express this point. I want you to keep writing, I also want you to grow as a writer at the same time.

You have creativity and I hope you never stop writing.
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PostSubject: Reply   December 27th 2008, 1:40 pm

The answer is, yes, I do. The further answer is that what I feel is what I wanted to feel. The scene conveys what I intended it to do.

You do know that that scene from Moby Dick is something a homosexual would choose? I am stating a stereotype, but I have heard that scene presented a number of ways. I have worked off shore, so I understand some of the ways that we men relate - so I bring to this scene something more to what I believe Melville intended. It however presently is not a clear scene.

As for the 3 Musketeers, I would hope there to be a level of emotion there. The guy is in dire shape. When my story gets to such level, I hope that I can convey that much emotion. The present chapter is not there. If you expect such intensity in every paragraph, sorry.

That happened once, you know. I was writing a paper for a class. I had a scene that I felt would get me the 'A.' I worked on it, and got it right. I got a 'C' however, as when the teacher read that section she wanted the whole paper to be at that level. While other people were getting 'A's and 'B's with the usual crap, I got a 'C' because I wrote an exceptional page. So it goes.

I am glad that I am entertaining you at some level. I am continuing to write. I have gotten better, and expect to get better still. Maybe one day you can tell me that I finally 'got it.'

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PostSubject: Re: Into the Land of Immortals - Chptr 9   December 27th 2008, 6:28 pm

TerishD wrote:
The answer is, yes, I do. The further answer is that what I feel is what I wanted to feel. The scene conveys what I intended it to do.

Fair enough.

Quote :
You do know that that scene from Moby Dick is something a homosexual would choose? I am stating a stereotype, but I have heard that scene presented a number of ways. I have worked off shore, so I understand some of the ways that we men relate - so I bring to this scene something more to what I believe Melville intended. It however presently is not a clear scene.

I have no idea why you would bring this up, but as I had said, it was an arbitrarily picked section of the book to work from. I could have used any chapter (I could have even asked you to pick a chapter) and it would not have made a single bit of difference in regards to my point.
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PostSubject: Part 2   December 31st 2008, 8:40 am

Into the Land of Immortals
Chapter Nine

Part 2

There was nothing truthfully odd about the grounds of Merkinnist. The buildings had the usual uses. The people went about doing the usual jobs. The symbology used in the decorations had no correlation to the religious stories that Giluchex knew, although the explanations sounded like the same fanciful stories he remembered being told on his world. The morals tended to be duplicates of those stated on Davelda. The names of characters and certain details were completely different, although Giluchex found himself annoyed by these tales just like those he heard back home. It was truthfully only when he spoke to someone besides his translator that he realized that he was not on Davelda.

Giluchex kept attempting to place the arches, as they were just familiar enough to think that they could have duplicates somewhere on Davelda. As with everything else in Merkinnist, a closer inspection had him accepting that he was a long way from home. The large white arches revealed their age as they entered a section of woods. The trees showed signs of having to find sun or good soil around the ornate worked stones. Many trees overshadowed the structures, but their manner of growth revealed that even in their youth the stones had stood.

Beyond a line of trees Giluchex could make out another sunny area. He moved from a paved path to identify the sources of some glaring reflections of sunlight. There was nothing unfamiliar about a graveyard. As he moved forward, he found himself chuckling as an open door and large hanging padlock revealed something else about the inhabitants of this world that correlated to life on Davelda.

"I see that you have grave robbers."

A monk of the order of Merkinnist, the same order to which Dathol belonged, had been assigned to guide and translate for Gulichex. The man was more than eager to talk about the sites, history, and legends of the holy grounds and the land around it, although Giluchex had noticed that the man had grown silent as each lengthy oration he started quickly became interrupted by requests to just tell the facts and high points. Giluchex inwardly groaned as he saw the monk's face brighten with what he surely felt to be another chance to speak of his home.

"Oh, no, as Sanver watches over this land very closely."

Giluchex began walking over the grass towards the cemetery as he replied, "Oh, so you are going to tell me that somebody was cleaning the mausoleum?"

"Oh, no, Sir, that is a most special mausoleum."

The monk freely spoke the phrase while following. Giluchex had expected some words about moving off any path, but the translator showed no displeasure with the direction of travel. Children had been seen running freely, but most of the adults stayed to the paths. Giluchex had thus expected some official rule that was simply ignored for the young. The attitude of the monk displayed no such command, as he continued to speak without any tone of being annoyed.

"That is where Dathol rests when his soul is in the divine realm."

Giluchex could not hide his disbelief as he crisply asked, "He sleeps in a mausoleum?"

"Each time our God calls Dathol, there is a hope that he will feel at home and stay. I have often spoken to him about what he sees and experiences in the land of our God. He tells me amazing things, but there is a sadness in his voice. I, like many that have spoken to him over the ages, find a cheerfulness in his movement and speech, except when he talks of those lands where we will spend eternity."

Giluchex could now see that the stone building had been intentionally left open. The actual doorway had been filled with a clear plane to keep out intruders. A bronze panel next to the opening Giluchex assumed explained what he had heard the monk describe. Giluchex saw the stone sarcophagus where Dathol had his body interred and found himself unable to feel any connection to the evidence.

Stories of people coming back from the dead, ghosts, zombies, and other paranormal entities Giluchex relegated to being tales of fantasy. He knew Dathol, and did not associate him with death. Giluchex knew stories of people meditating and slowing down their bodies for extended periods. Five years did seem a little long, but he looked into the mausoleum thinking that there were many places around statues or ornate decorations for hiding food and drink to keep the body alive. He knew that when Straekin learned of Terish's return to sanity, she had come to Merkinnist to call Dathol back from his time among the dead. Giluchex considered the story of summoning the holy man back to the land of the living to simply be a case of waking the man from his self-imposed coma. The mausoleum thus lost its interest as it was considered only the place where a trick was done, and not where something magical, holy, or extremely unusual occurred.

Leaving the cemetery on the paved path back to the main buildings, Giluchex saw Dathol walking towards him. While a thought had been building of being bored, there was a fear that others might comment that more time would be needed to gain an appreciation of his surroundings. Giluchex strode forward determined not to listen to the decisions of others, but to force them to accept his conclusions.

Dathol cheerfully spoke first, "How has your tour been going?"

"The hospitality has been excellent, but I believe that I have seen enough."

"Chorrik is spending the day with his wife complaining about his aches. I suspected that you would rest for a day or two."

Giluchex sought to stress some of his own importance as he chose the words to say, "I have never ridden horseback into battle, but pains and aches never kept me from my mission. Once the duty had been performed, I considered all travel back home to be relaxing."

Dathol's expression showed some uncertainty in what he heard, although he spoke with some confidence that he understood. "Well, good. Would you be ready in the morning?"

"What?" Giluchex had to pause to wonder if his intentions had been declared too obviously, then he paused again to assure himself that he had understood the holy man. "Travel with you?"

"If you don't mind. If you have not been informed, Merkinnist is primarily considered important because of its historic ability to act as a place of refuge for the children of the nearby city. It has become an orphanage and school because of that association. Terish and Straekin kept me aware of their children because they knew it was something I would enjoy."

"Of course, Venicht," Giluchex softly said while mentally realizing that events were actually working in his favor. "Sure, Dathol, I will ride with you. I was dreading having to manage the dimensional crossings myself."

"The horses of Davelda have a rather extensive reputation that is highly deserved. Your mount would have brought you home. Having someone to talk to along the way could however make the travel slightly more enjoyable."

Pleased in how things were working in his favor, Giluchex decided to allow Dathol an opportunity to brag. "How did you know that I would want to return?"

"Ask Terish questions that you want answers to. He has worked to learn things, so can relate what he knows to what evidence he gained. I simply have a relationship with a God. I cannot always understand what I am led to do."

Giluchex considered the man to be acting humble, so pressed to get a more definite response. "I came on this journey to hopefully learn something."

"Terish taught your people about the omniverse. He taught certain citizens of Davelda how to train your horses. Your empress has studied with Terish, and traveled with him. You might not like the fact that he successfully courted Straekin, but you have to give her credit for truly being worthy of having a place with him. You thus know some knowledgeable people."

"I get the point," Giluchex mumbled while reminding himself that he was not around those that shared his beliefs.

"Tomorrow morning."

~^~^~ ^~^~^ ~^~^~

Venicht looked up from his math work to ask, "Nuverd, do you want to be immortal?"

The man had been in attendance during the lessons. Venicht could quickly disappear at an odd moment, so Nuverd stayed present to watch the lad while the instructor graded papers, focused on a presentation, or simply had his or her attention diverted. The lad generally did not seek trouble, but he also did not associate leaving what he considered a boring activity to be something wrong to do. Nuverd could not remember the topic of immortality being brought up during the lessons, although this world did consider the topic of importance. He had been quizzed on the subject before being allowed to stay with the prince. Nuverd thus worked to answer the question so as to quickly put the lad back to focusing on the math.

"Do not think that only those of Davelda seek immortality. It is a subject of my world, the world of which Thiminy is a part, as well. The dwarves that live behind your father's castle in the mountains live a long time. Elves live longer still. There are humans that have sought and found methods of living beyond their allotted years. Death is however a constant presence in the physical realm. You cannot run from your fate, Prince Venicht. You can only run to it. Now, get back to your math."

"Father says that he has faced death many times, and understands that he will face him again. He says that he did not gain immortality, but a lack of peace."

"From what I know of your father, those words sound true. You should take them to heart, Prince Venicht, as you will face Death as well. Most do not have guidance when they face the possibility of immortality, so make mistakes. You have those that can advise you even at such a point in life. The gods will thus hold you responsible for things that they easily forgive in others. Now, get back to your math."

"How old are you Nuverd?"

The man grunted, popped the staff upon the ground, then said, "Fifty-three, which may or may be an answer to one of the questions."

"I want to grow up to be like my father. He is immortal."

"You father has done very well, Prince Venicht. I hope that you come to have his wisdom, but more of a willingness to settle down. Thiminy has prospered, but we often had to do so without the presence of our king. Your father would show up to save us from certain fates just like he has a multitude of others, but just as those others he would then rush off to save someone else. Thiminy needs a monarch that will become a part of our daily lives. Becoming like your father is a good thing, but I believe you can become better. Your father is good at math, Prince Venicht, get to work."

The hands of the lad became a blur as he worked the problems on the page. The elder marveled again at the natural quickness of Venicht. Nuverd however knew not to reward him for his speed, but held a grim expression as a confident voice spoke.

"Sauton taught me math, Nuverd. At least this easy stuff."

"Your father's dragon can indeed do wonderful accounting. I have had to face Sauton. As a general in your father's army I could need to face him should I need more funds to pay the soldiers while your father would be away. While King Terish has been a very common presence during my service, I have heard stories from those that served your father in previous times. Like I said, Prince Venicht, you can become a better man than your father."

"Mother did not like father taking me to see Sauton, but I liked him."

Nuverd noticed the attempt to put the topic of conversation on a lighter subject, but spoke to let the lad know that wisdom was ever around him. "My meeting with the dragon also went well. He is a very large and very dangerous creature, but without such a creature guarding your father's wealth he surely would be the target of thieves everywhere."

Disappointment at the response showed on the lad's face, and it stayed as he asked a question, "Can I go play now?"

"It is beginning to get late, Prince Venicht. Annalia should have supper ready very soon. Whatever you feel like doing should be kept to the confines of this apartment."

The lad cheered as he rushed to his bedroom. Nuverd walked into the kitchen to relax, but noticed as he gained a seat that the monitor had been set to watch the lad. The man knew that some had voiced concerns about statements from the prince that he had been beaten, but most only wanted the cameras turned on the boy so they could watch him. The comment from Annalia seemed to verify that other concerns than his treatment had come up during the study period.

"Venicht's math will be advanced to some algebra and geometry rules."

"Just because he did it fast does not mean that he did it correctly."

"It was checked while you talked about Sauton, Nuverd."

"Very well," the man mumbled while he thought about other things he had said. "I hope no offense was taken by me referring to Prince Venicht as gaining the throne of Thiminy."

"You should know better than that, Nuverd. There are some that actually cheered your comments about Terish. What is more, the people of Davelda hope that Venicht will rule Thiminy, because it means that the throne will become vacant because his mother has returned here."

"Something will have to change, because Queen Straekin laughs as she moves around Thiminy. I have not heard her laugh here."

"No, the council makes ruling this land rather difficult. Word has come however that Giluchex went with Chorrik to Merkinnist. Maybe he will learn something that will make his faction not so difficult."

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Adult Christian fiction quite different than all the usual lame stuff in that market.  "Dilemma of Dreams" now in hard back.
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